George Perle
With Christopher Hailey
New York, NY
April 18, 1985
TABLE OF CONTENTS
Side a: pp. 1-18
Early life in Chicago--family background--moving to Indiana--effects of isolation--first musical experience--parents’ knowledge of music--early experiences with death--first contact with a piano--his capacity for independent work--Sonata for Cello and Piano--problems in writing for cello and piano--making changes in his pieces (Three Movements for Orchestra, Six Bagatelles for Orchestra, Sonata a Quattro)--working with performers.
Side b: pp. 18-36
More on making changes--his independence of character--revelation of hearing music for the first time (Chopin F minor Etude)--uniqueness of his response to music--absolute pitch--more on first musical revelation--belief in intuitive hearing of music--incoherence of some contemporary music--false standards used by some critics--lack of understanding for contemporary music and music in general--Bartók quartets--pieces he grew up with--Six New Études--his special identification with the piano--solo works for strings and their roots in his early experiences.
Side c: pp. 36-54
Rebirth of solo pieces in the 20th century--his intimacy with stringed instruments--early stages of his wanting to be a composer--parents’ socialist and Jewish background--early interest in reading--childhood education--importance of early relationship with his mother--early effort at composing--early piano lessons--first theoretical discovery--more on childhood music teachers--musical education from records and the radio--family roots of his talent.
Side d: pp. 54-72
More on education from radio--introduction to music of Schoenberg--childhood musical tastes--“pure” music vs. words--importance of Mozart to Shaw--first seeing orchestra--being a self-taught composer--Berg’s literary background--pros and cons of being self-taught--Schoenberg as self-taught composer--early piano and theory lessons (at Chicago College of Music and in Indiana)--early compositions--more on early piano and theory lessons.
George Perle
With Christopher Hailey
New York, NY
April 23, 1985; April 29, 1985
TABLE OF CONTENTS
April 23, 1985 interview
Side e: pp. 1-16
Moving to Chicago--composition lessons with Wesley La Violette--Perle’s early compositions--struggling during the Depression--La Violette’s compositional style--American trend towards “naive” atonality (Ives and Ruggles)--independent musical study in Chicago: Wozzeck--compositions at DePaul--Perle’s method of teaching orchestration--break with La Violette--opinion of Ravel and Sibelius--crisis in his musical language--reminiscences of Frank Lloyd Wright (including his fondness for Beethoven).
Side f: pp. 16-32
More on Frank Lloyd Wright--more on musical crisis--discovering Berg’s Lyric Suite--Berg’s last years--Perle’s analysis of the third movement of the Lyric Suite--his opinion of the Schoenberg Quartets--studying scores--Perle’s absolute pitch--first public performance of his music-- early pieces (Pantomime, Interlude, and Fugue, Triolet, Molto Adagio, Presto Grotesco) and his transition to writing atonal music.
Side g: pp. 32-47
More on early pieces (Triolet, Classic Suite)--relationship of Bartók’s music to Perle’s early pieces--more on living and studying in Chicago (Berg and Schoenberg)--buying first recording of Lyric Suite--meeting Krenek--influence of the ballet (Serenade No. 3)--admiration of Balanchine--exposure to modern dance--other musical influences of 1930s (Tristan, Beethoven quartets, Bartók quartets)--writing for string quartet--studies with Krenek--meeting Adorno, Steuermann, and Dessau.
Side h: pp. 47-61
More on Steuermann and Adorno--Adorno’s book on Berg--contact with new circle (Kolisch, Eisler)--Perle’s interest in Wozzeck and Lulu--his individual understanding of Berg and the twelve-tone system--other analyses of the Lyric Suite--Little Suite: Perle’s first work in his own 12-tone system--tonality within the twelve-tone system--thoughts about Krenek--more on his opinion of Schoenberg--bias of critics--organizing the New Music Group of Chicago--
Side i: pp. 61-69
Organizing concerts in Chicago--being reviewed by John Cage--being published in Spanish--serving in the army--works from 1940s (sonatas for solo clarinet, Lyric Piece, Hebrew Melodies, Rilke Songs).
April 29, 1985 interview
Difficulties of chronology--more on impact of dance--more on musical influences in 1930s--comparison of Martha Graham and Balanchine--influence of Bartók quartets--Scriabin.
Side j: pp. 69-93
More on 1937 musical crisis--the state of 20th-century music--his approach to studying music (Density 21.5, Le Sacre Du Printemps)--teaching about music--similar organizational principals in various composers (Varèse, Stravinsky)--problems with contemporary music--cohesiveness of Berg’s music--difficulty of defining “American Music”--use of jazz elements--American atonal music--teaching composition--chronology of works from 1930s--more on discovering harmonic organization based on diminished-7th tetrachords--more on chronology--1939 lessons with Krenek--first work using 12-tone row: Little Suite--connection between Perle and Berg.
Side k: pp. 93-109
Chronology of musical and life events from 1939-1940--opinion of Hindemith--being compositionally stuck in 1940--breakthrough of Modal Suite--developing modal system--writing solo pieces to circumvent harmony problem--intuitive vs. systematic composing--Viola Quintet; dedicated to his first wife Laura; first large-scale “intuitive” work--use of traditional 12-tone system (String Quartet No. 3, Op. 18B)--correspondence with Krenek--correspondence with Paul Pisk--“correspondence” with Schoenberg--review of modal system by Jonathan Dunsby--use of term “atonality”--meeting new friends after World War II (Miriam Gideon, Milton Babbitt, Seymour Shifrin, and Leon Kirchner)--critique of “Evolution of the Tone Row” from Paul Pisk--fortuitous nature of discovery of 12-tone tonality--more on Pisk--
Side l: pp. 109-122
more on correspondence with Paul Pisk--harmonic connections within the twelve-tone system in music of Berg--correspondence relating to “Evolution of the Tone Row” (Fransisco Curt Lange, Otto Werkman, Nicholas Slonimsky, Richard S. Hill, Willi Reich, and Geoffery Sharp)--publication of articles--publication of compositions (Solo Viola Sonata, Hebrew Melodies, String Quartet No. 3)--being left out of postwar 12-tone bandwagon--naïve application of twelve-tone system (Virgil Thomson, Ben Weber)--mastering “intuitive” technique of composing (Viola Quintet, Wind Quintets)--inversional relationships in the wind quintets--collaborations with Paul Lansky--use of strict modal system (Second Serenade, Opus 6)--publication of the Piano Sonata in South America--early performance; Rhapsody by the Louisville Orchestra--finishing Ph.D. in New York, 1956--serving as professor at University of California, Davis, 1957-1961-- being “left out” of the circle of performed composers.
Side m: pp. 123-136
1960 article on Die Reihe in the Journal of Music Theory--Stockhausen--“left out” theorist; Princeton seminars and Allen Forte--Fromm Commissions--feeling isolation as a composer--performances of orchestral works (Short Symphony, Three Movements for Orchestra)--programming of 20th-century music by orchestras--invitation to be Tanglewood’s Composer-in-Residence from Gunther Schuller, 1967--performances at Tanglewood: Fifth Quartet, Three Movements for Orchestra--second Tanglewood residency in 1980--performances in 1981 (Three Movements, Concertino for Piano, Winds, and Timpani, Short Symphony)--support of Oliver Knussen--television appearance at South Bank (UK) on Berg’s Lulu--more events from visit to UK in February 1981--attention and gallantry of British audience--1982 appearance at the Austrian Musicological Society on Berg--performances in Vienna of Concertino for Piano --Schuller’s advocacy of Perle’s music--recordings under Gerhard Schwarz--other performer-advocates: André Emilianoff, Richard Goode, Robert Miller--pieces performed by Robert Miller (Toccata, Études, Ballade)--effects of writing for a specific performer--importance of phrasing, dynamics, etc. in composing.
Side n pp. 139-147
Solemn Procession (originally from Symphony for Band) written at Louisville--scant experience with orchestra in U.S.--writing Three Movements for Orchestra--performance of Three Movements at ICSM Festival--American premiere of Three Movements in Chicago under Ralph Shapey--difficulty of getting performances beyond premier (Hugo Weisgall)--working with James Levine on Lulu production--diplomacy needed while producing an opera--dramatic subtlety of Act I, Sc. 2 of Lulu--performances of Wozzeck and Lulu since Berg--the hypothetical Perle Opera--Wozzeck and Lulu’s influence on younger composers--Perle’s discovery of Verdi’s genius--difference between opera in the U.S.A. and Europe.
George Perle
With Christopher Hailey
New York, New York
November 15, 1985; January 24, 1986
TABLE OF CONTENTS
November 15, 1985 interview
Side pp. 1-15
Perle’s activities as a musicologist-- study of Berg’s Lyric Suite and Lulu--Leibowitz and Redlich on Berg--enrollment at NYU in musicology as an excuse to compose and study Berg--Babbitt’s influence on Perle’s theoretical and musicological thinking--naïve approach to 12-tone system--parallel between Perle’s crisis and Schoenberg’s--contact with Steuermann and Kolisch in New York--importance of Babbitt’s friendship--Babbitt’s trouble with his Ph.D. dissertation at Princeton--lessons with Krenek--life in New York--meeting Kirchner, Babbitt, and Ed Cone--studying medieval music with Gustave Reese--revelation of Machaut Mass--Perle’s publications in musicology while studying with Reese--article on Antoine Busnois’ Chansons--American presence in musicology.
Side p: pp. 15-24
Study of Gregorian chant at NYU and its relation to solo works--study of Machaut--analogies between music of the 14th and 20th centuries--his interest in Busnois--decision not to pursue musicology as a career-- meeting musicians while at NYU--performance of Molto Adagio by New Music String Quartet--forming composers’ circle in New York (Miriam Gideon, Seymour Barab)--interview as “young composer” on WNYC; Broadus Erle performs Perle’s work on the broadcast--generosity of Barab in suggesting Perle for interview--performances and a first recording--Lyric Piece for Cello and Piano--decision to study Berg, Schoenberg, and Webern for NYU dissertation--Reese’s teaching style.
Side q: pp. 24-35
Reese’s place in American musicology--Perle’s pioneering in 20th-century musicology--more on Babbitt’s dissertation--Curt Sachs--Gerhard Herz--acquiring a position at University of Louisville--factional situation at Louisville--more on Curt Sachs--parents’ values--being a reluctant musicologist at Louisville--compositional activities at Louisville and the ramifications of leaving New York--performance of Six Preludes in Argentina by pianist Robert Below--Perle’s reputation in South America--Juan Carlos Paz.
January 24, 1986 interview
Side r: pp. 35-49
Perle and Babbitt’s unique view of 12-tone system--“intuitive” use of twelve-tone language in Berg’s Violin Concerto--problems with other analyses of the Lyric Suite (Redlich, Adorno, Krenek, and Leibowitz)--the “future” of Babbitt’s theories--Perle’s opinion of European postwar serialists--depth and longevity of Berg’s music--influence of Schoenberg on Perle--Perle’s studies of Webern--importance of early Schoenberg to Berg--Perle’s lasting interest in Berg--path to becoming world authority on Berg--correspondence with Redlich on Berg--the relationship between Berg and his wife--conversation about Berg to Rudolf Kolisch--discovering the hidden program of the Lyric Suite--publication of article on the Lyric Suite in the Berg Society Newsletter.
Side s: pp. 49-63
Discrepancy between Berg’s appearance and the actual character--Reich and Berg--current Berg scholarship (Patricia Hall, Janet Schmalfeldt, Douglass Green, Mark DeVoto)--Berg’s place in the modern repertoire--Berg’s accessibility and his radical use of the 12-tone system--differences between early and current performances of Berg’s music--performances of Lulu--Berg’s impact on the opera--what Berg might have written after Lulu--connections between Perle and Berg--recent developments in Perle’s musical language--deep roots of 12-tone tonality (Chopin, Schubert, Liszt)--12-tone tonal system as found in Debussy, Bartók, and Stravinsky--work on new book The Listening Composer--influence of Bartók and Debussy and Perle (Concertino for Piano)--influence of literature on Perle’s music--“romanticism” in Perle’s music--interest in Henry James.
Side t: pp. 63-69
Interest in Proust and Rilke--poetry--Songs of Praise and Lamentation--writing Sonnets to Orpheus--Sonnets as a memorial for Noah Greenberg--striking coincidence of getting “unstuck” on January 9.